| oceanic freedom • emergent law • seasteading |

#1

| Joe Quirk | Wilfried Ellmer | talk about | oceanic freedom • emergent law • seasteading | classification societies | emergent ruling codes | pirate law | the origins of the US constitution | do we need kings | subdue to nobody | ocean colonization | Nanny State | oceanic aquaculture | arbitration | interference freedom | governance | marine law | admirality law | consent of the govered | yacht seizure | jurisdiction |

The original forum talk is on a half deleted forum so we repeate the core passages below…
(see Original Source (lost deleted) )

| Seasteading | Carnival Vista | BOKA Vanguard | laws apply | EEZ | political paradigm | classification societies |
| seasteading | vision paper |
| Seasteading | Carnival Vista | BOKA Vanguard | laws apply | EEZ | political paradigm | classification societies |
| wilfried ellmer • joe quirk • emergent law • classification societies • oceanic business alliance | bersenbrück marketing strategies | interdisziplinäres team • b2b • service | yook3.com |
#2

joequirk Ambassador

Oct '15

The NYT is beating a relentless drumbeat for government oversight over all things oceanic. Politicians have written public letters mentioning the “The Outlaw Oceans,” with John Kerry describing it in interviews and speeches.

I think we could write “Oceans Of Emergent Law” as a response. Is the following thesis is accurate?

The Earth is currently divided between two philosophies of governance. 55% is claimed by state monopolies based on military control of land. 45% is entirely aquatic and flourishes as a voluntary seavilization well into its Golden Age. Consider that none of the following services at sea involve tax confiscation or armed enforcement:

SEARCH AND RESCUE: Private salvors rescue more ships than the Coast Guard and often rescue military ships who call them for help. Environmental cleanup is often provided by private salvors.

COURTS: Disputes are brought to Lloyd’s private arbitration, who require the disputants employ no lawyers. Lloyd’s has no enforcement mechanism. They simply publish their decisions, and industry participants comply.

FOOD SAFETY: The FDA-- with its staff of over 14,000, plenary powers, budget of over $4 billion, and armed raids-- only inspects 2% of seafood imported from overseas. Why aren’t we poisoned? With a staff of 140 people, The Marine Stewardship Counsel compels the global fishing industry to comply with sustainability and safety standards. They also have no means of force. They simply publish their judgements.

SHIP SAFETY: 50 ship classification societies operate worldwide. They compete to provide optimum codes of construction. 6 compete to provide rules in Singapore, and as far as I can tell there is no state oversight of this.

GOVERNANCE: American institutions emerged from pirate innovations: constitutional democracy, worker compensation, equal pay and rights of former slaves, checks and balances. All these institutions flourished 50 years before Madison put pen to paper. We interviewed Peter Leeson, author of “The Invisible Hook.” The governance innovations we inherited from pirates were as foreign to landlubbers in the eighteenth century as the ocean of emergent law is to land-based citizens of the twenty-first century.

Is a state-free civil society already flourishing at sea?

#3

ellmerWilfried Ellmer

Nov '15

The NYT is beating a relentless drumbeat for government oversight over all things oceanic

Seven days ago @joequirk started this thread with an “interesting hypothesis”

The hypothesis is:

There are interest groups moving forward with the agenda of “government oversight on the oceans”

Is that really so ? - and if it is so - what are their chances to succeed ?

This is a question seasteaders should be interested in debate about…

#4

Wilfried Ellmer

Nov '15

In the thread investigating the drivers of oceanic freedom the case was made that what drives the “rules people act along on the oceans” are not really “law” and state grip - it is more a “culture of convenience” driven by the smallest common denominator which is “non interruption of trade”.

#5

Wilfried Ellmer

Nov '15

COURTS: Disputes are brought to Lloyd’s private arbitration, who require the disputants employ no lawyers. Lloyd’s has no enforcement mechanism. They simply publish their decisions, and industry participants comply.

This sistem emerged from practical needs works well, and gets its “force” not from police violence but from the authority to be “all side accepted”.

In some way it is a new kind of law that is in existance without a legislator without a jurisdiction without a state. It is based on expert knowledge, basedemocratic agreement, and the will to settle disputes and come along - interesting that it explicitly EXCLUDES lawyers and courts as “part of the problem” leading to a “sclerotic situation not desired by anybody”.

In some way it is doing what “burning man” is doing - it creates a “culture of solutions and peaceful come along” rather than a “legal sistem” with “law enforcement”. - A new way of “organizing human activity along different lines than violence and enforcement” - kind of “tribal agreement” - we the people…

#6

Wilfried Ellmer

Nov '15

Is a state-free civil society already flourishing at sea

I would like to present the hypothesis " it is " and put out the postulate that human interaction on the liquid surface of the planet is fundamentally different to human interaction on the solid part of the planet surface.

One of the most important differences - the actions are not dictated by strikt law texts and jurisdiction but by a kind of culture based on a few core values like the right of free passage and the convenience of non hostile come along forming the base of global trade in a multipolar world…120 million container units per year are moved and handled under this seafaring culture without interference and interruptions in a state free ambient - vital to human survival on the planet.

remark form 2023:

Seizure of russian superyachts, on the (more than) questionable rule base “we take your yacht on the legal base that you are russian and we don´t like russians”

It is an interresting detail that those yachts are NEVER intercepted and boarded on the ocean but instead "grounded" when they are "sitting ducks" and "easy targets for cabal sponsored authorities" in the harbor.

Oceanic intercept would be a “clear violation of the right to free passage” and a “pirate style interruption of oceanic trade” - looks like “nobody wants to go there”…yet…

Anyhow the quest for the submarine yacht is on… | no spotting | no intercept | no boarding | free global mobility guaranteed | no “sitting duck” situation in the ports |

Update on Russian yachts seized: 142m Lürssen superyacht Nord returns to Russia

(The whole thing did not stand scrutiny in court … so cabal had to take it back…seizure mandate on the ocean is a non go … that backfired…like many other mandates latley) ( SuperYacht Times 28 Jun 2023 ) ( althoug the mainstream media does not report the “failed seizure” - who would have imagined that…)

#7

Wilfried Ellmer

Nov '15

@joequirk | would confirm this

I handle ships and classification societies all the time - yes i would confirm this - the sea and marine business is state free de jure and defacto in dayly practice.

Whenever i board one of the ships i ask a person i find there ( preferebly low ranking and from philipinas…where many crew nowadays come from…) in what state we are standing right now? - many of them have no idea what to answer ( the correct answer is: it is the state of their flag of convenience) - but they ALWAYS know under whoms rule set ( Lloyds, GL, ABS, etc…) the ship is managed and handled. Are we on our way to a very different kind of society ? - and is the ocean just the first place to make it manifest ?

#8

Wilfried Ellmer

InsteadofPolitics

Nov '15

I was not even aware that Lloyd’s had an arbitration branch

@InsteadofPolitics -

Most of the bigger societies (Lloyds, GL, ABS, etc…) have branches and rule sets on basicly “any aspect of life and management at sea” ranging from “oil drilling” to education, qualification, ship repair, and container freight insurance. What ever they think needs to be “regulated somehow in the interest of all involved parties” they regulate it - regulation is their “product” they sell it to the ship owners and insurance companies, and ship yards, and everybody else who is “in business on the ocean” - and everybody can “opt in” or “opt out” on their rule sets at any time.

In other words - what the videos envision as “possible theory” - it is pretty much everyday reality in MARINE BUSINESS as we speak.

They started as ship captains “giving expert opinions” on marine affairs - but they have developed into “universal oceanic big government” in the meantime.

#9

Wilfried Ellmer

1

InsteadofPolitics

Nov '15

What can you tell us about GL and ABS?

They have a website where they explain what they do … they regulate and cover basicly ANYTHING they get interested customers for…and where a “ruling code” makes a “sellable product”. A good starting point is to understand how they came in place historicly.

#10

Wilfried Ellmer

1

Nov '15

The NYT is beating a relentless drumbeat for government oversight over all things oceanic

@joequirk / @InsteadofPolitics / In the light of the debate so far - what is your best guess ? is that a “tendency with a chance to have success” - or is the “freedom of the oceans” still in strong standing? - And can we build an oceanic future on it ?

#11

Wilfried Ellmer

1

Nov '15

emergent law

Emergent properties and processes

An emergent behavior or emergent property can appear when a number of simple entities (agents) operate in an environment, forming more complex behaviors as a collective.

So your base hypothesis is “law” (o what spark calls “natural law”) just raises as a function of needs that can easyly be satisfied by private companies like classification societies - is that reading correct ?

The history of the “emergence of classification societies” and how they operate in practice, would certainly be a strong argument for this thesis…the element of a “sovereign” and an “enforcer” is obviously innecessary…what brings us to the old enlightenment question - Do we need Kings ? - the answer seems to be NO - opinions and qualified debate on that ?

#12

Wilfried Ellmer

7

joequirk

Nov '15

@joequirk - Let me butt in here and point you to another field that normally is associated to the state - EDUCATION - classification societies offer courses for welders and surveyors to get a “GL classified welder” which increases the value of the worker and is seen as a equivalent of a “college degee” - “accepted ocean wide”.

Why have nobody seen that ? - classification societies came up to solve practical problems - not to move politics - in the same way as pirates invented direct (republican style democaracy with right to bear arms and enforce your interest if convenient) by accident - looking for a practical way to run a ship and its tripulation when “rank and king means nothing” and “consient of the governed” is the only way. Both work pretty much outside the horizon of philosophers and statesmen - there are not many to look at this from this specific socio-political angle as you do with a humanistic education background. … we are recently now 300 years later beginning to realize the role of pirate agreements in forming a new society and way of politics…it is not the document in the smithsonian - (as official historians make us believe) it was the pirates and the indian tribes (we the people) who already lived in “alternative societies” under emerging law successfully - they gave Ben Franklin and his friends this “kind of ideas” in first place.

Let me also point you to the East India Company and its oceanic empire as first real multinational global company - with all black and white shadows… certainly worth another book about oceanic trade and economic power of sea based empires…

#13

Wilfried Ellmer

3

joequirk

Nov '15

I can’t find examples of these institutions turning to a state to back up their judgements

it is rather the other way around - states accept - their rulings as base for their “law”…and judges ask “what is ABS saying ?” - actually state influence is rather going back on the oceans than going forward. - a strong indicator that the “more efficient sistem is winning ground”

#14

Wilfried Ellmer

3

InsteadofPolitics

Nov '15

The people that most need to be informed … are the investors

The fact that a thing very close to a state free society of emergent law exists on the liquid planet surface should draw investor interest.
A frontier development opportunity should draw investor interest. Is going oceanic the next big thing in business? Is Burning Man a model how people organize sponaneously along a culture rather then a law ?

#15

Wilfried Ellmer

1

InsteadofPolitics

Nov '15

just offer them superior choices

Each squaremeter of stateless floating real estate becomes a kind of blank page where you can write a totally new chapter free of third party interference - this is the intrinsic beauty of the seasteading concept. It will definitly open the frame of options and choices for everybody.

#16

Wilfried Ellmer

1

Nov '15

The Earth is currently divided between two philosophies of governance

@joequirk - comming back to your thread starting thesis - the debate so far indicates that the thread participants in general all confirm your thesis .

So let’s take this a moment here as a "all side accepted FACT "

“The Earth is currently divided between two philosophies of governance”

… what does this mean for the seasteading movement ? How should seasteading take advantage of this situation ?

#17

Wilfried Ellmer

8

joequirk

Nov '15

earth is physically divided between a largely statist and a largely voluntaryist mode of governance

@joequirk - Absolutley - you can definityly see it from that “socio political angle” althogh i need to advert you that a classification society would probably not agree when being accused to do “revolutionary socio political things - with transhumanistic relevancy” they see themselfs rather as “mere tech expert groups doing tech things - avoiding politics althogether” - this is along the thought line that technology moves society - not politics. ( It is a bit like asking a pirate what he thinks about doing base democracy experiments…and if he wants to write a passus in the us constitution…)

So for a book you need to let talk the examples (as you did in your starting statement) and formulate the “political theory” on base of that - bringing this striking argument “ it already does exist ” at the end - sounds like the stuff best sellers are made of… | pirate codes, classification societies, Civil order pact, tribal laws, could be chapters… ( Oceania - The land where Kings never got a foothold )

#18

Wilfried Ellmer

6

Nov '15

example of a non-territorial jurisdiction

The example of classification societies also sheds light on how “non territorial jurisdiction” can work without clashing - each of the classification societies work worldwide but they are naturally limited to the collective of their members. Their come along is “friendly and and colaborative” instead of “conflictive” a welder who is certified with ABS can work on a job that is overseen by GL and his qualification will automaticly be recognized as “equal good” by a GL surveyor. Therefore a welding job performed by a ABS specialist on a GL ship will get a GL quality approval in its “repair book” without any problem. Equally any territorial state official (like a Coast Guard officer) will recognize a GL, ABS, Lloyds, certified repair as a “perfect safe and final repair” inmediatly and allow a tanker repaired along those guidelines entrance in a national harbor as a qualified and safe ship.

If you think it trough there is no way to do it different than “recognize each other mutually without problems” - it is the only way of politics that keeps the ships safe and moving . [.] (Mobilis in Mobili the factor of oceanic mobility a key for freedom ).The come along of ships and the rule sets that regulate them is driven by the economic interests behind them not political motivated laws...

#19

Wilfried Ellmer

1

Jan '16

not only is “non territorial jurisdiction” working perfectly well at sea, we also see already indicators that the whole concept of states and territory will fall apart on land too… a perfect example is the “Singapore landfill venture” creating new facts like “liquid real estate ”… the whole idea of the grounded national territorial state is falling apart…as new technology for global networking and offshoring of financial assets and interests become available. The subdue to nobody model is emerging globally.

#20

Wilfried Ellmer

2

Mar '16

Transparent rule sets and openess of mind key ingredient for prosperity (Ref. Dubai “choose your law”)

Earth population is 3 times the sustainable level now - only ocean colonization can save us…seasteading is not a “lifestyle choice” its a “survival need” …